Pastor's Circle - Mark Durie

Dr. Mark Durie is a theologian, human rights activist and vicar of St. Mary's Anglican church in Caulfield, Victoria, Australia. You can visit his website here. He came on The Matt Friedeman Show to discuss the effects of 9/11. Here are the "CliffsNotes" of his interview.

I want to talk about 9/11. Have we learned anything from that experience?

I think we're more afraid than we were. But whether we're better equipped to deal with that I'm not sure.

It's very difficult for people to face up to the religious motivations for that act.

Obviously our lives have been changed. Flying is completely different now.

We live in fear now much more than we used to. I think that's a great loss.

What does the rest of the world think about this?

I think it rattled everyone.

Other parts of the world have had similar events. This is not an American issue, it's a global issue. But 9/11 was the wake up call.

I think the evangelical world is divided on how to respond to Islam. So in some ways it's been an effect that has divided Christians.

I think we should love Muslims, reach out to them, make friends with them, and share the love of Christ.

The real problem is the difference between Jesus and Mohammed.

The problem is when Muslims do terrible things in the name of Islam, they have an example in Mohammed. Whereas when Christians do evil things, they can't point back to Jesus.

We have to love, and still speak the truth. That's the challenge for us, I believe.

Are Muslims coming to the Christian faith?

More now than at any other time in history.

All over the world there are tens, even hundreds of thousands turning to Christ.

Research has been done on why Muslims convert to Christianity. The number one reason is that they see the quality of life and love in the Christian.

I've heard that many Muslims convert because of dreams.

And also through other miracles, healings, God showing up.

Jesus is calling to them. He wants them back.

Muslims are taught within Islam that dreams are very significant ways of communicating with God.

Pastor's Circle - Mark Durie

Mark Durie, vicar of St. Mary's Anglican Church in Caulfield, Victoria, Australia, joined the Pastor's Circle today to discuss weaknesses of the church in western countries.

Spiritual vulnerabilities of those of us who live in "modern" countries. What are some things that we struggle with today?

I think because we don't have a good theology of suffering. We can be used to success. And that can corrupt us.

To actually put ourselves in God's hands....is quite scary for us, if we haven't faced up to the reality of suffering and the sovereignty of God over our lives.

Is the problem that we don't have the reality of suffering?

I think that's right. We don't have to think, "If I'm a Christian today, I might be dead tomorrow."

That means it's sometimes harder to get sold out to the Lord, and easy to get caught up in little things.

If you're thinking, "If I witness Christ today...I could lose my wife, or my kids tomorrow," it makes you think more seriously about your life.

I'm not sure if I'm ready to pray for persecution. But what's the antidote to our lack of theology of suffering?

I think one thing we can do is empathize with our brothers and sisters who are suffering.

I think it's a very good thing to read the New Testament, focusing on what it says about suffering.

There's the word of God that points us there. There's the experience of other Christians.

You can read history, as well. You can read the history of how the Church has grown, and where it's come from.

You talk about not just suffering. Give it to us in a nutshell. What is our theology of success in the western Church?

Well, our theology is if you live in the right way, pray the right prayer...give to the right ministry, you will be blessed.

It's a convenient message. Because it's a way of getting people to give.

Sometimes people who struggle and face many difficulties and setbacks...are the ones God is most present with.

Blessed are those who weep. Blessed are those who mourn. I think we've lost sight of what Jesus taught there.

Everything you're saying sounds like the book of Job.

The thing about Job's friends is that everything they say sounds so plausible.

Actually, they're not speaking the truth. Job is actually wrestling with God..and is refusing to accept the message that just because he's suffering, he must be a sinner.

God is pleased with him. It's amazing, really.

God honors his integrity of clinging on to the truth.

What's something else we can move to here. What's a serious vulnerability for us in the modern evangelical world?

Maybe it's not such a  problem in the US, but it's a problem here in Australia.

There's a privacy issue.

It's not being real.

It's a lack of emotional engagement with God.

We live at a disconnected level. The reality of the message in our lives is really shot away.

That's a thing that troubles me a lot.

From God's perspective, "I wouldn't be envious of someone with a lot of talents"

Pastor Mark Durie talks about the Parable of the Talents and what that means for our lives.


How unfair is it that some of us get more talents than others?

God reaches out to some people in ways that are very hard to explain. You can't measure Christ that way.

He shows his favor to some in a really profound way and not to some.

Some people have particular gifts and talents and others don't.

I think there's something really true in that parable.

Your comeback to the guy with one talent?

I think God will not ask how many talents they've been given, but what they've done with what they have.

That's incredibly fair.

The question is what will you do.

As the New Testament says, if you've been given more, more will be asked of you.

If you have more talents, you should have the fear of the Lord.

I wouldn't be envious of someone with a lot of talents, if you're thinking from God's perspective.

I think Jesus is asking us to look at this issue through God's eyes, from a different perspective.

The Lord seems to say to teachers, "Watch out, if you don't use your gift well." How scared should we be of that accountability? Can we be too cautious?

I think St. Peter said, "If anyone's been given a gift, use it with the most confidence."

Remember the warning in the parable, the person who hides the talent in the ground...that's the worst solution, really.

You'll be asked what did you do with it.

That will be the key question.

What is a good God-risk and what is a stupid man-risk?

That's is such a hard question - a discernment issue.

You need to seek the council of other people.

Ultimately, I think the church will be asked why we didn't take more risks, instead of too many.

The thing about the parables is that they're meant to challenge you. They're meant to rock you to the very core.

I think of it like a pebble in your shoe. It's meant to annoy you.

I've got a lot of so-called talents. It seems like the people with the most talents want to take fewer God risks. Close to the truth?

I think there's a lot of wisdom in that.

If you have a lot, you tend to be more cautious.

If you have a little, it's not so hard to give it  away.

I think it is difficult. Beware of the trap of having a lot.

There's a big challenge to be disciplined, to be consecrating everything you have to the Lord.

If you've had everything taken away from you, it's easier to give to the Lord everything you have.

The next passage is the account of the sheep and the goats. Could it be that the parable of the talents and the account of the sheep and the goats go together?

That's an interesting thought, isn't it?

In the second one, he talks about caring for your brother and sister. That puts a new spin on talents.

Maybe (our persecuted brothers and sisters) are our gifts.

It's a very hard expansion of the question of our heritage that God has given us.

Maybe the suffering Christians around the world today are the talents - how have we responded to them.

Moderation "makes us lazy"

Mark Durie has written a list of twelve harmful ideas and beliefs that are prevalent in Western society. Today he addressed #9: The belief that extremism is the problem and moderation is the solution.


There's a belief that extremism is always bad and moderation is always good. Why is that wrong?

That's the idea that if you're kind of vanilla somewhere in the middle...you must be safe.

The problem with that is that it short circuits the idea of thinking through ideas.

The problem is, when we apply this idea of extreme versus moderation to religion, we stop thinking.

It makes us lazy, I think.

What do Christians tend to moderate?

I think you end up just going with the flow.

You end up accepting the status quo.

Whatever are the values of society, you get conformed.

If we aren't salt and light in our culture, what happens?

It loses it's flavor.

Ditch the whole talk of moderate versus extreme, we're supposed to be true Christians.

Look at the way Jesus speaks, He didn't say be a moderately good person.

If we follow through with Jesus, we're going to have to change.

It becomes a sort of denial. You don't think you have to change.

It's not really what Jesus calls us to.

What's the hardest thing for the people in your congregation to change?

I think just setting aside, you might say, worldly ambitions.

It's the call of trying to be successful in your life.

Instead of trying to be successful in the eyes of the world around you, you think, "How can I be successful before God."

We have lots of distractions in our lives.

I think pressing the "off" button may be one of the most liberating acts we can do.

In the Bible they speak of gluttony, which can be food. But today we're stuck on technology.

In your blog, you mention Eric Hoffer's thesis. Explain.

Well his basic thesis is extremism is a personality type.

So a Nazi may become a Communist one day, and something else radical the next.

The problem with that, it denies the power of the actual idea. The real problem is the extreme personality.

That can cause us to be really lazy when we encounter bad ideas...it's really your attitude that makes all the difference.

Some ideas are really bad ideas and cause a lot of grief in the world.

I remember once I had a friend who came from Russia......and someone said Communism isn't that bad. He said, I've lived under it! Communism is a bad idea!

Saul went from being a radical persecutor of Christians to being a radical Christian. Is there an element of this that's personality based?

I think there is.

Clearly, some people are very committed, passionate people.

Often bad ideas have a grain of truth in them.  That's what makes them so appealing.

If you just focus on that personality issue, you'll miss the fact that when Paul did become a believer of Christ, it changed his life.

He didn't just change from one kind of extremist to another kind of extremist.

Pastor's Circle - Mark Durie, Australian Anglican

The Reverend Dr Mark Durie is vicar of St Mary's Anglican Church in Caufield, Victoria, Australia.

How do we distinguish people from beliefs?

I think you really have to let Jesus' words change your life. He said love your enemies, be good to those who hurt you.

You can argue vehemently with others, but it's different from shooting them.

We tell people not to personalize it.

I think Jesus' view on this has had a profound impact on freedom in the West.

Of course people's ideas are going to offend other people. Certainly that's a view many Muslims have that the state should protect them from being offended by other beliefs.

I think more Muslims are becoming Christians now more than any time in history.

There's lot of Muslims seeking a loving God. I think it's a great time to tell people about Jesus and His perspective on loving people even if you don't like them.

What works with Muslims?

I think the most powerful is that they know someone who's a Christian and their friend.

The Holy Spirit is calling people through dreams and visions..but the value of a relationship can't be overestimated.

We need to look at people and see them as people whom Christ loves.

Many Muslims aren't radical. Some are embarrassed about Islam. They're often relieved when someone wants to talk about Jesus.

I think they might be frightened because you might make assumptions about their religion.

Do Muslims want to talk to you?

I think it depends on the person.

A lot of women are looking for a redemptive God of love.

If you're quite open about what you believe and you're direct...it's surprising how willing they are to listen.

Do you have to go soft?

What I believe about Islam is quite clear.

But, when you're speaking to someone from an Islamic background, that doesn't mean you have to bring everything forward at the first.

I have found some of those most radical Muslims are good to talk to. They appreciate the fact that I am open and direct with them.